tasar731
Barely got their feet wet
Posts: 1
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Post by tasar731 on May 25, 2010 23:45:02 GMT
Hi all,
My brother and I are contemplating getting back to sailing after an absence of about 15 years. We used to sail an Osprey but now consider the potential to capsize (given our advancing years, 53 and 50) to be completely unacceptable. We have therefore turned our attention to keel boats, I hanker after the Osprey's performance and so favour the Tempest, my brother looks more to all weather capability and stability so favours the FF, but is he correct in this? Is the FF a "stiffer" boat than the Tempest. If anyone has experience of both boats I'd like to hear their opinion, but even if you haven't sailed both, give me your tuppence worth anyway.
You will probably guess from my user name that I tried a Tasar for a bit (short bit), it was just too agitated for me, the Osprey felt rock solid compared to the Tasar, so it was a failed experiment.
[Agent:2]
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kjman55
Barely got their feet wet
Posts: 2
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Post by kjman55 on May 26, 2010 10:53:55 GMT
I can probably help. I and my sons between us own 5 Tempests and 6 Flying Fifteens, and I have been continuously sailing both ffs since 1989 and Tempests since 1992. Our ffs range from very early one (KA 956) to a late model one, and include classics. My eldest son is the NSW ff State Champion.....The Tempests are 3 Oz built and 2 Maders ( one a 1974 polyester, and KA 15 one of the 4 "experimental" 1975 epoxy Maders). FFs are nothing like Tempests. They are easier , softer and tamer, and totally different in character. Oddly, that said, because of the brilliant deck design in the Tempest, even though it is far faster and exciting and more intellectually challenging, physically I judge the Tempest the easier of the two to sail.Also getting out on the trap is dead easy even for an oldie like me. The ff has a nice turn of acceleration ( nothing like a Tempest) but is held back,ultimately, by the lack of a trap. Years ago I fitted a trap to an ff for fun, and it totally transformed the boat in a breeze. Wow.It flew.FFs dont point because of the keel: ok for ff racing but an issue in mixed fleets. That said, the Tempest doesnt point particularly well either because of the turbulent flow flat plate, but it has the power to foot fast enough to get away with it in mixed fleets . Both classes have old fashioned parachute kites ( in chutes if desired) but the ff kite being smaller is easier to handle in over 20 knots. When it blows, a Tempest kite can be testing. But if you have a chute,& selflaunching pole, its is all pretty straightforward. A big plus of ffs is the huge number of boats and large fleets. But to my mind the greater appeal lies in the quirky cult status of Tempests.They have such character and presence in any fleet. Could I choose between them? . Both classes are beautiful. Each is a pleasure to own and sail. But, boats are like women. Why settle for one when you can have a harem, and enjoy their diversity? Ultimately, while the FF is a truly great design of the 40's, the Tempest was revolutionary of the 60's and truly eclipses everything else, including several modern "try-hards" like the Magic 25, Blazers etc from the 80's and '90's. The ff is more practical in that it can be easily dry sailed from a trailer. Rigging the tempest and drysailing it from a trailer is just too much of a hassle. So a Tempest will need to be kept at a club with a crane or similar. Ive also got a Star, a Soling, and half a dozen other boats, but the Tempest for me is the ultimate design from the last Century, and in my view one of the very greatest-ifnot the greatest-yacht design of that Century.
Keith Manion
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kjman55
Barely got their feet wet
Posts: 2
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Post by kjman55 on May 26, 2010 11:50:57 GMT
Sorry I forgot to answer your specific query. Its not a question of "stiffness" per se.Each has a broadly similar ballast ratio,( I say that from "feel, not from checking the figures) and about similar form stiffness in the hull. The difference you will notice is in the power generaated by the different sail areas. Both will heel in response to a gust, and you will need to respond as quickly as if you were still in a tasar. However, ffs are much less powerful. The Tempest section needs more flexibility in the topmast, but is governed by antiquainted class rules, and in my view too stiff. Im not on top of latest European developments, so maybe some Tempest enthusiasts can enlighten me.Ff sections, being light, have a fairly flexible top mast area which depowers automatically. I find that impossible to achieve in a Tempest section ( all mine are old circa 1975 Proctor sections, so they may have hardened up) but I have mucked around with a 3 1/2 " round 18 foot skiff mast on a Tempest and got brilliant results. Unfortunately. illegal on a Tempest. At the end of the day, youve got a vang, a traveller and sheets. In Sydney our typical summer breeze is a 20-25 knot gusty variable sea breeze, which has you working equally hard on both boats. Having the for'ard hand out on trap means the skipper has to do more, and he also has to hike hard on both boats. Because it is less powerful, the ff is more forgiving and gives you an extra half second or so to do what you need to do. If you get an ff, get a late high floor model as they are easier to hike from ( and dont fill up and sink when you stuff up a gybe in a big sea. Ask me, Ive done it!!). A Tempest will happily allow you to capsize it if you so desire ( you have to use a lot of determination and body weight). That is a huge safety plus. I have purposely capsized a Tempest to sit out a 60 knot line squall which decimated an Etchells fleet and sank 3 boats including a J 24 we never recovered.Several others lost their rigs. We simply sat on the mast/gooseneck for 20 minutes to keep it capsized and drifted with the seas, then righted the boat and simply sailed on when it dropped to around 30 knots. We were the ONLY finisher. Sure, quite a bit water got into the hull through the gunwhale joints, but . You just cant do thatwith an ff, as the c*ckpit volume is too great ( excuse the asterisk but this moronic website automatically edited c*ckpit into "thingypit" in my previous post,- I just couldnt believe my eyes. God save us from the nanny state!.I had to re-edit it to "deck".) I would have thought that stepping out of a Tasar, a Tempest would feel like a natural progression while an ff would feel a bit like an Etchells does compared to a Soling- i.e. like a quiet cuppa on the verandah of the retirement home, compared to a night on the town with the lads. I strongly suggest you go for a sail in both classes. If you havent sailed for a while, hop back into a Tasar for a couple o weekends and then you could easily master either class.
Keith Manion
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